The other big noise around NZ lately has been the progress of Green MP Sue Bradford’s “anti-smacking bill”, which essentially outlaws the physical disciplining of children.
This has, predictably, kicked up a righteous hullaballoo. The hardcore fundy Christians hate the attack on their God-imposed responsibility to smack their children into obedience and love. Libertarians are upset that the state is going to tell them how they have to raise their children. Everyone agrees that, for those parents who kill their children, this legislation isn’t going to provide much disincentive.
I support the bill. I don’t have kids, so I can’t speak to the difficulties of parenting and discipline. But I know this – I have on many occasions watched as some mother or father laid down a mighty load of smacking on a misbehaving child. Furious, stressed parents at the end of their tether, trying to just get through their shopping and go home, who smack down their children, hard. Every time I have witnessed this kind of display, I have felt sickened, and also helpless.
This kind of treatment is unacceptable. If the bill passes into law, then it will also be illegal.
The other issues are sideshows. The real concern is this kind of physical beating of unruly children, which happens every day, all over this country. I welcome this legislation as a step in pushing such behaviour beyond the pale, where it belongs.
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This is turning into “issues week”. Gosh, which pressing ethical conundrum shall I glibly solve tomorrow?
20 thoughts on “Talking Smack”
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I also support the anti-smacking bill, even though I am a parent… I haven’t yet smacked my child. I hope I won’t, but I suspect it is part of my subconscious repetoire for dealing with misbehaviour… I can see situations in which a smack could sneak out. I do think smacking is wrong.
I have however, picked up a struggling screaming child and forced him into his carseat, restrained same struggling screaming child from charging across a road or carpark, removed him from high places, changed a dirty nappy and wiped a rashy bottom even though it was clearly excrutiating, removed dangerous or precious objects from him… all by virtue of my greater physical strength, and even just prevented him, physically, from doing something that would be inconvenient for me at the time.
I have never bitten my child back when he has bitten me (I think this common response is wrong, and am also concerned that in my pain… two year olds have sharp teeth… and anger, I might really hurt my child), but I have on these occasions sometimes plonked him in his cot or room with more force than I should have. I have also returned him to his room if he has left it during time-out and used my greater speed to shut the door, ignoring his piteous wails for (almost) the full 2 minutes suggested for his age. I have removed his food cos he was throwing it, confiscated pens because he drew on things he shouldn’t have, gone away when he said “go away Mum” even though I knew he didn’t mean it.
I have tried not to lose my temper. Sometimes I have failed. Oftem time out is as much for my benefit as my child’s. He is only two (and usually the light of my life). I expect to lose my temper many times more…
Discipline often involves unpleasant scenes… often these situations can be avoided by realising your child is tired or hungry or thirsty or over-excited and remedying it before bad behaviour ensues. But sometimes parental intervention is necessary. Unfortunately, with younger children, this does come down to “You are smaller than I am and less experienced in the ways of the world, I know what’s best for you and I WILL enforce it with my greater size strength and will-power.” This sucks. Sometimes it sickens me. If you did this kind of stuff to an adult it would totally be a breach of his human rights, but sometimes it is necessary. Actually I am lucky… generally my child respects my boundaries. He learnt to speak earlyu and we can often discuss things rationally. If I say something is hot or sharp or could break, that is often enough for him to hand it to me. If I say he will hurt someone he already has enough empathy to stop unless he is angry or over-excited. Usually I don’t have to use force, but I do sympathise with parents faced by tantrums in carparks or supermarkets… I can understand (though not condone) the use of smack.
I support the anti-smacking bill too. I think using force against a child only teaches the child to use force against others.
Also, the law needs to be simple. Children need to know that violence is not okay. They need to know that if they want to talk to somebody about it, they can. The ambiguity around the law at the moment means that some kids don’t know when they should call for help. It’s a hard enough thing to do as it is.
Oh, to be able to physically restrain teenagers as easily as 2 year-olds!
“Franz, stop hitting Joseph with that chair immediately! That’s it, you’re going into time-out young man!”
*takes chair from the hands of 6 foot 2 inch enormous 16 year-old manboy, carries said manboy out of the classroom and shuts him in a convenient time-out room*
“And you’re going to stay in there until you’re ready to apologise.”
Discipline would be so much simpler in such a world.
(Note: If the Ministry of Education would fund giant robot suits for all teachers, we could actually live in such a Utopia).
I sit upon a fence re: anti-smacking bill. It removes a legal defence for parents who beat their children. This is good. It outlines some situations where force may be used (protect the child from harm was one, I think?). Mostly it feels all good to me, but I can hardly claim to be well informed or, to be honest, particularly het up about it.
I’d vote to pass the bill, but I wouldn’t issue death threats against people who oppose it 😉
Sorry Morgue… more thoughts on this whilst loading my gel…
Most of today’s parents were brought up in the 60s, 70s and 80s when smacking kids was a normal part of raising kids… most were smacked themselves and observed smacking on a regular basis as a method of behaviour management. All of us are apes, however much we control our instincts…
If this law is used to direct people who need it to councelling, anger management courses, or parenting courses, all well and good. If it makes the lives of parents who are already struggling harder by imposing fines or prison sentences, or allows the cops to harass people they don’t like, then not so good…
I don’t know… I think the ‘penalties’ for this one will have to be carefully thought out. I think that it will be hard to draw a line in the grey area between, say, holding your child down to wash a sore bottom as gently as poss (clearly in the child’s best interests though James might disagree at the time) and the public episodes you are talking about.
I also think, most of the worst abuse happens behind closed doors, where it will never be uncovered, and much of it is non-physical, so could not be prosecuted.
I would never deliberately hurt my child. Inadvertantly hurting one’s child is probably inevitible.
I have however, picked up a struggling screaming child and forced him into his carseat, restrained same struggling screaming child from charging across a road or carpark, removed him from high places, changed a dirty nappy and wiped a rashy bottom even though it was clearly excrutiating, removed dangerous or precious objects from him…
I believe this is all explicitely permitted by the new law..
Err, I put &q& &/q& tags around that quote, but this board software appears to have eaten them.
I am pretty much exactly the same boat as Karen. I have a 2 year old who acts very similar and we have never smacked her. I have also had those nights where you have had no sleep and constant screaming (and I have to say a child screaming, especially your own is one of the hardest things in the world to deal with). And I agree with a lot of what Karen said.
Thing is I was smacked as a child, but it was very very irregular, never excessive and it worked, and even the threat of it could get you to behave.
But I think there is a lot of abuse out there. I don’t know if this will actually get the people its supposed to be targetting (or will be a case of punishing after the crime)or whether they will care. And I don’t know if pretty innocent parents at the end of their tether are going to get punished by this or feel more stressed. But in general I actually support the bill if its done right.
Just to clarify my position: the stuff I’m talking about goes beyond a smack, even a smack in anger – this is when parents actually lash out, hard and repeatedly, at their children. That is the stuff that makes me ill. And there is a heck of a lot of it out there.
Crikey, am I the only parent of a toddler who’s going to admit to smacking them? I give Rebecca a smack if she’s really acting up – mainly if she’s hitting or kicking anyone (i.e. she hits, she gets hit back). If it does work (which is debatable) it’s mainly the psychological effect – in general, threatening to send her to bed without a story is more effective. But we do use the thermonuclear option, and will probably do it a bit in future.
I await the phone call from CYFS. I shall come quietly.
Jack: the black helicopters are on their way.
“This is turning into “issues week”. Gosh, which pressing ethical conundrum shall I glibly solve tomorrow?”
How about how when you and I Cold-KRUSH Leon’s broke-dick optimus prime truck in the contest to score babes in America, the feeling of watching me HAVE to take all the girls???
I like that idea.
On this debate, I’ve always found the following argument the most compelling:
“There is no defence in law for harming an animal. There is no defence in law for harming an adult. There is no defence in law for harming someone else’s property.
Why should there be a defence in law for harming a child?”
Jack: I’m not lying about never having smacked James… honest… also not lying about understanding why people do…
Matt: I am hoping that by the time James is a teenager the brainwashing (I mean sensitively applied discipline) will have taken effect and he’ll have stopped trying to bite me 🙂 But I guess that’s the hope isn’t it?… that while they are small enough to control you instill enough self disciplin, self control responsibility and common sense that they’re not TOO much of a danger to themselves or society…
“All of us are apes, however much we control our instincts…”
Ummm, at the risk of picking up on the most piddling detail, all apes have to raise, train and discipline their young; some will do this better than others; some young will be better-adjusted than others. We’re as ape in the controlling of our “instincts” as in our giving way to them.
Oh yeah, and at least from what I remember, Jane Goodall reckons the brutally disciplined chimps don’t turn out as well-adjusted as the ones disciplined by less aggressive means… (umm, the chimps were being smacked by their elders, not by Goodall…)
Yup… Good point Andrew(-: But I have definitely seen footage of chimps taking casual swipes at their unruly young.
I was in no way advocating brutal discipline… my own discipline relies more on carrots (well, cuddles and stickers), praise of specific desirable behaviours, distraction, removing problem objects or the child where possible, and ignoring or deliberately and conspicuously turning my back on minor undesirable ones (surprising successful with my toddler, though I expect useless for older kids), and time out (so far only used for deliberately hurting people). But as you say apes who have been brutally disciplined tend to be less well adjusted… and maybe more inclined to brutal discipline of their own offspring… maybe some of these apes need help to overcome their instincts and find more positive methods of parenting (in the first instance, anyway, obviously not for recurring violence or severe abuse)…
I’m just waiting for “time out” to be banned as cmon lets face it, its pyschological torture and warfare ;).
And Jack while I am being honest about never having smacked my child. I wasn’t having a go at someone who does, I totally understand why you might of and I’m not going to judge anyone on that. But when it gets to the case or using objects like jug cords or really going to town then something should be done.
Dunno… 1 minute for each year of my age… 36 minutes on my own in my room, with noexpectations on me. Sounds more like bliss than torture! 🙂
hmmmm when my daughter dissapears off into another room and is totally quiet for 5 minutes (and we aren’t talking sleeping here) I start to wonder what she’s up to heh. She has figured out if she isn’t sure if she will get told off/stopped from doing something, that is she is quiet maybe no one will notice her :).
But hell yes a half hour break of quiet, peace and not having to do anything, sounds like Paradise.
Hi, my story is similar to Karen’s. Has anyone heard of Pavlov’s dogs? Smacking does not teach anything, it only works as long as the threat is present once it is removed it does not leave a self controlled or self disciplined child/person.
I heard one protester on the news saying that smacking was needed to stop a child from running on the road or touching an electric socket. What about saying no, explaining the danger and re-enforcing with removing the child from the danger or prohibited activity, and staying vigilant until the child understands? Many children are smack for childhood immaturity, which is not deliberate or planned, or willful in anyway.
Many Christians believe, ‘Spare the rod, spoil the child.’ The Bible’s referral to the ‘rod’ does not mean hitting but the shepherd’s rod. The Shepherd uses the rod to guide the sheep not to beat them! There for the rod represents discipline in the form of teaching and guidance. I don’t believe it means that you must hit your child.
I totally applaud Scott A. There should not be a defense in law for allowing anyone to harm a child. In fact the present law does not allow anyone other than a parent justification for harming a child. Seems odd!
One last word, think of what actually happens physiologically when you smack. It hurts and sometimes makes a red mark because it causes small vessels to break and bleed.
Hi I posted a comment. What happened to it?